Q&A: The Met’s Dennis Littky is Headed for a New Adventure

Photograph courtesy of The Met

Dennis Littky is not afraid to shake things up. The internationally known educator first gained a reputation as a reformer in New Hampshire, where his efforts to overhaul the local high school inspired the film A Town Torn Apart. After moving to Rhode Island in 1995, he and Elliot Washor co-founded the Metropolitan Regional Career and Technical Center, later followed up by the college access program, College Unbound. Both schools use an individualized approach to reach students traditionally locked out of academic success.

Though his unorthodox methods have ruffled a few feathers along the way, the Met’s model has been replicated in more than 200 schools globally, while College Unbound has several locations nationwide. After more than five decades in education, Littky is finally ready to turn his eye to retirement and plans to spend part of this year living in Costa Rica. Rhode Island Monthly caught up with Littky on his history and how he feels about education today.

What’s next for College Unbound and the Met?

College Unbound’s expanding. We started with fifteen students. We now have 400 in Providence, 150 in Philly. We’ll start with twenty in Seattle and Greenville and we have twenty in Chicago. For College Unbound, [the goal is] to continually get better. Adam Bush is taking it over, who was my provost and he’s now president. And it’s really to keep getting better and to expand its influence. And the Met, it’s kind of the same thing. The philosophy is so right. It’s just based on learning theory. You learn when you’re motivated. You learn when you’re doing real work. Somebody who’s doing research on diabetes because of the younger sister keeps doing it, you know? It’s about finding that interest and passion and putting people out in the community.

What was your experience with education like growing up?

I grew up in Detroit. Middle class family. But I always knew school was a joke and a game. In seventh grade, they’d show a movie and the teacher would open up the questions and just ask us. For science, we had to do these big posters. People would just copy them out of the encyclopedia and we put them all around. And same with high school. I just did what I had to do. I went to University of Michigan for college, and I’m trained as a psychologist. I have a Ph.D. in psychology, and I got one in education.

How did you end up working in education?

When I was graduating, my dream job was to work at a university and run my own psychiatric home. Well, at twenty-five years old, the head of my department recommended me for the children’s orthogenic school in Detroit. So I applied. Turns out I didn’t get it, but I was the runner-up. Ocean Hill-Brownsville was set up as a demonstration school district in New York City to give the power back to the people. Someone called me and asked me to come to New York. And so I took the job. But as I accepted the job, the guy who got the job at the orthogenic school came down with cancer, unfortunately. And they offered me that job. So I sometimes think, ‘You know, I could have been a psychologist living in Detroit.’ Versus [part of] the biggest thing going on in education. 

I understand Stanley Goldstein, the CVS co-founder and Woonsocket native who recently passed away, was a good friend. How did you meet him?

When I was in New Hampshire, I got a call. There was a man, Peter Karoff, who ran the Philanthropic Initiative, which helps rich people give away their money. He was a friend of Stanley’s, and they heard about my school in New Hampshire. Everyone heard about it somewhere. He brought Stanley to my school in New Hampshire to meet me. And Stanley fell in love and started supporting our work and then said, ‘Come to Rhode Island.’ Ted Sizer, who was running the Annenberg Institute [at Brown University], had just been given $50 million to set up the institute. So he said, ‘Come here for that.’ Elliot [Washor] and I came here in ’95 and we set up our own nonprofit called the Big Picture. And then the [education] commissioner, which was Peter McWalters at the time, came to me and said, ‘Could you set up a model school in the state?’ And I said, ‘If I can do it exactly how I want.’ And he said yes.

How do you think the education system as a whole today compares to when you first started the Met?

Stuff’s not changing. It’s the same as it was thirty years ago. I think our jobs get harder because of the fast world around us and kids looking at stuff for three seconds and then moving on. Unfortunately, schools are not much different. It doesn’t mean some programs aren’t better. But it’s all bigger than that. Everyone’s tweaking around the edges and you will not change the system.

In the past few years, we’ve made strides at opening up public college to more and more people. At the same time, private schools are more out of reach from most people than ever. What do you think is next for the college landscape?

The Browns, the Yales, maybe even the Fairfields, will not go away. Providence College will always get their students. The next level college that you’re still paying $60,000 to $70,000 — there’s a college a week closing in this country now. When we got our accreditation [for College Unbound], which everyone thought we were crazy, thirteen colleges had closed in New England during that year. There are three major online colleges — Southern New Hampshire University that you’ve seen a million ads for, Western Governors University and Arizona State. Some people have written those three will control the world. I think many underserved people can’t just sit there online. It’s the personalization that we have in College Unbound. Two-thirds of our stuff’s online, but a teacher doesn’t do a random sociology course. All the professors, they know their job isn’t just to spout out the stuff, but to help the students apply it. And then once a week, they meet with a lab faculty person. Everyone graduates with a project that they care about.

Outside of your own organization, who do you think is getting it right in Rhode Island?

I believe in small schools that are more personalized, so I think a lot of the small schools are doing a good job. Who wants to put 2,000 adolescents together in a school? Man, I think that’s cuckoo. I think it’s the small schools that are doing a more personalized job. There are some great ones and not great ones. I don’t really know specifically, and I don’t want to get myself into pinpointing. But I do believe small, personalized, built around the student [models] is when you get the best results.

What about charter schools? Those have grown significantly in the three decades since you started the Met.

I believe in parent choice. I believe in small schools. I know the union feels — and a lot of people feel — it takes away from the public school, but they are public schools. I explain to people they’re public schools, they’re just running in a different way. Charter schools just allow people to do something different. There’s nothing magical about charter. There are bad ones. There are traditional ones. There are military charter schools. There are progressive charter schools. But I do believe that parents should have some choice. Because once you make a choice, you’re a little more committed to your school.

What do you think is the biggest challenge for today’s high school graduates?

People used to make a big deal about getting kids into college. They never understood colleges are business. It’s easy to get kids into college. The hard part is getting kids to finish. It’s always cost. In many cases, it’s an irrelevant curriculum. And the worst part is the insecurity that people have, even when they get out of college. There’s so many people that are twenty-two years old and don’t have a job. Colleges have not worried at all about that. And they should. So part of the argument out there is vocational stuff versus liberal arts. I think that is not the right argument. It’s both. You’ve got to get trained a little for what you’re doing. On the other hand, it’s best to get a broad education. It makes you better.

Who’s your biggest inspiration in your work?

My inspiration comes from how unfair the world is. When I see stuff, I get angry. But then I don’t stay; I say, ‘How do I change it?’ That’s really been my inspiration. When I see stuff not working, I go, ‘Come on, we can do better than that. It’s ridiculous. Let’s just build a program here and do it.’ And I also get inspired when I see kids doing amazing stuff. 

What gives you hope for the future?

My hope is when I see new generations of kids, you know, the fourteen-year-olds standing up for what they want, that inspires me. People aren’t keeping their mouth shut. And when I see our students, the high schoolers, graduate — when you see them and the college students, you get inspired that it can be done for everybody. And when you hear their stories. So that’s what keeps me going.

Where is your favorite place in Rhode Island?

It’s right here [at the Met]. Or at the college. This is where I’m most comfortable. And this is what I do in Rhode Island. I don’t hang much. I’m not a beach person. This is my life right now. The other little funny place is Louis [Family Restaurant]. Louis is a little joint restaurant. I’m there twice a week.

With all your projects, I find it hard to believe you’re going quietly into retirement. Any plans in Costa Rica?

I travel a lot. I travel every summer. I don’t stay at fancy hotels, and I travel to places like Nicaragua and Colombia that aren’t as easy. Because it shakes you up a little. So this is just an adventure. I don’t know what city I’ll live in. I don’t know if I’m living in a condo on the beach or some little place. When you talk about lives, I think about, hey, will the first person I meet say, ‘Let me get you surfing,’ or one of the teachers here has a friend that started two immersion schools. I’m not looking to do anything. I’m looking to be part of a new community. And not to be with expats. I’m an adventurist a bit, and as long as I’m still healthy and my brain is good, I’ll be good.

This interview has been edited for length and clarity.